July 1, 2025
068: Tactics Tuesdays: Managing Agency Relationships
The costly lesson of mismanaged agency relationships can create quite the hit to your brand. Mike shares a raw account of how trusting an Amazon management agency without proper oversight created a perfect storm of inventory problems that coincided with tariff changes—a mistake that will have a significant cost.
Drawing from both perspectives—Mike as a brand owner who experienced the setback firsthand, and Jon as an agency owner who helps brands navigate Amazon—this conversation delivers crucial insights for anyone considering outsourcing their Amazon operations. The hosts dissect where things went wrong, revealing that the fundamental issue wasn't necessarily the agency itself, but rather the brand's approach of "abdication instead of delegation."
The episode introduces a powerful framework for evaluating agency performance: measuring inputs before outputs. During the first 2-3 months of an agency relationship, brands should focus on concrete actions being taken rather than final results. This means tracking whether promised campaign structures are being implemented, listing refreshes are being completed, and proper keyword segmentation is occurring. Only after this foundation is established should the focus shift to performance metrics.
Beyond tactical advice, the conversation challenges conventional wisdom about KPI selection. Why focusing solely on ACOS or ROAS can be misleading, as these metrics can be easily manipulated. Instead, they advocate for broader measures like TACOS (Total Advertising Cost of Sale) and contribution margin metrics that better reflect true business performance. Discover practical guidance on agency vetting, including interviewing multiple candidates, meeting the actual account manager who'll handle your business, and setting realistic timeframes for evaluation.
Whether you're considering hiring your first Amazon agency or looking to improve an existing partnership, this episode offers an invaluable perspective from those who've experienced both sides of the relationship. Avoid the costly mistakes that even experienced brands can make when navigating the complex world of Amazon management.
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00:00 - Introduction to Agency Partnerships
07:36 - When Agency Relationships Go Sideways
15:32 - Defining Success With Your Amazon Agency
25:52 - Beyond ACOS: Measuring What Matters
35:20 - Vetting Agency Expertise and Personnel
44:23 - Inputs vs Outputs: Setting Realistic Timelines
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Welcome to another episode of Brand Forge HQ and Tactics Tuesday.
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Today we're talking about something that I think is really important for any brand as it continues to grow, which is, you know, when you bring in an agency or you know some sort of other vendor, and how you work, especially with an agency that's managing ads.
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We'll talk mostly about specifically on Amazon, but I think a lot of the discussion here is going to apply as if you're you know, we have an agency that's helping you on Meta or Facebook or TikTok.
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A lot of these same principles are going to apply of how do you work well with an agency.
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And so with that, mike, I'm going to turn it over to you, mike, since I know that you know this is something that you've been working and really thinking on a lot over the last few weeks.
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Yeah, it's an issue that is going to cost us a lot of money, and some of that is due to the agency and some of that, quite frankly, is due to us mismanaging that agency relationship, and so I think that's really where I want to place my emphasis.
00:01:02.481 --> 00:01:16.522
There's really no sense in placing the emphasis on the agency themselves, because I'm not going to divulge the name anyways, I'm not going to throw them under the bus and also, some agencies don't work out well for one brand but work great for another brand.
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Sometimes it just depends on the type of brand that you are, the customer avatar you're shooting at.
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So that's probably the unimportant piece.
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The important piece, I think, for me is that our agency relationship did go really sideways.
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We're going to lose a lot of money over it and, at the end of the day, I think most of it comes down to that the agency.
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So, just to put this in perspective, we brought on an Amazon account management agency, so a full service agency to manage really the entire Amazon account, the idea being that we felt that we had really, we'll say, pulled a lot of the levers that we really thought that we could pull on Amazon, and so we wanted to start focusing on the levers that we could start pulling off of Amazon, which not only would help us diversify, but also that our expectation and that still proves to be the case is that our external efforts would translate to better performance on Amazon from external traffic and branded search and things like that which we've talked about.
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I still think those things are true and we're still working on that.
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But because all of our, because we were having to put so much emphasis and so much focus on our Amazon account, because we're a fairly small team, it just was proving difficult to do everything that we knew we really should be doing externally.
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So we brought on an agency to manage the Amazon account that was be doing externally.
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So we brought on an agency to manage the Amazon account.
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That was.
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In a lot of ways, it was really okay refresh some things.
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You know, take a look in the backend.
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You know it hasn't gotten the attention that it needs.
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It could use a refresh.
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But mostly, you know we want you to manage what we have.
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Like, if you can improve on it, great.
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But ultimately our main thing was just manage it, just maintain what we have.
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We'll do this thing over here.
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It'll trickle over, everything will be good, and the problem with that is was that our perspective was, once we feel comfortable that they know what they're doing and they understand our brand, we can put all of our emphasis over here and ignore that side.
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And that was a massive mistake, because we weren't tracking some really important KPIs that we should have been monitoring all along to make sure that they were doing the work that we really wanted them to do, and as a result, we ended up in a really rough spot with inventory this year.
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That's going to cost a lot of money.
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It just turned out to be at the absolute wrong time, because it was just prior to the tariff change, and so then we couldn't bring the inventory over from China, and so it just kind of snowballed into something much bigger.
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Yeah.
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So a couple of thoughts there and just, and for listeners that may not be aware, I run an agency specifically for brands within the Amazon channel, so I think this is a wonderful topic to have from both those sides of from a brand and then also from an agency perspective and so what I would say?
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That kind of clicks in my brain, just based on what you described and whether, again, a good agency and this is something that we started to incorporate more and more and getting better at which is, in that onboarding phase of really talking with the brand, to say, hey, what does what does a big, what does winning look like?
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So for some brands, that is, hey, we want to hit this sales threshold, or we want to double you know revenue, or we want to double profits, you know, whatever it happens to be In your case, that would have been hey, if you can improve things, that's fantastic.
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But really winning looks like steady state of making sure that there's plenty of inventory for the products that we have in FBA, that things are getting fulfilled, that the listings are getting it sounds like they're getting looked at on a regular basis, that ads are getting you know, it sounds like are getting looked at on a regular basis.
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The ads are getting, you know, optimized on a regular basis and that kind of blocking and tackling of Amazon is being taken care of and maintained so that way you can focus on other channels.
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So I think that's something really important, that again, you know, something that we've started to put a lot more emphasis in with the clients that we're bringing on board of what does winning look like.
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And obviously, as an agency, one of the things that we do is not only try to get the answer to that question but then look at, you know, how can we get them that win, or even you know, the first kind of big step towards that win as quickly as possible.
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So that way, you know the brand is getting value out of the relationship.
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So anybody listening out there, if you're a brand and you're looking for, you know, a new Amazon agency, if they don't ask you that question or something similar to that, I think that would be a first, you know, maybe red flag with that agency.
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But then also, as the brand you know, I would say you know, have that as a responsibility on you as well, as if this is an agency that you're really excited about working with for whatever reason, but they don't ask that question.
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You know, make sure that that is really clear, upfront, of what winning looks like and that that is put into, you know, concrete number form, so that way the agency knows like, hey, this is what's being expected of us.
00:06:28.423 --> 00:06:29.024
You're muted man.
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If we take a little bit of a step back, I think for now I have kind of a unique experience in that I work with John at the agency and I also work with Mike from from the brand side and from from my.
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I think a lot of the clients that we work with at First North are brand spanking new on Amazon, meaning they don't understand even the KPIs to pay attention to.
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For them, they're just understanding what ACOS is and what Tacos is and that kind of stuff.
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So for me, I think what's important for brands, especially newer brands that are just launching, are really understanding your business and understanding your numbers.
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I know that they say that on Shark Tank a lot, but understanding what the metrics are that are important to your business and being able to have a conversation with your agency at the very beginning of that is super important.
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And I think from a ProTuff standpoint, I think that not only knowing the KPIs that are important, but brand manager tended to give a little bit too much trust in that I wasn't paying attention to the things that they were supposed to be managing, and I think that I think that I think that every brand needs to be paying attention, regardless of if you're with an agency or not.
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There's certain things, especially inventory.
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I mean, inventory is a very, very important thing obviously, especially when you're heading into your busy season, and it was something that I, as brand manager, trusted a little bit too much in that that they were going to manage that correctly.
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So I think that, first of all, understanding from a brand standpoint I think it's a bad idea to just outsource to an agency right at the very beginning of starting of your Amazon journey, because I think that you have to understand the inner workings of your business before you hand off the reins and then not pay attention to what's going on.
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But on top of understanding your business and understanding the KPIs that matter, I think that there's still some level of involvement that the brand has to have in making sure that the KPIs are going in the right direction, over and above a weekly meeting, because I mean, you can meet with them weekly but if you're not actually paying attention, you know, one of the challenges that we had in the beginning was the reporting wasn't great from the agency that we were, and so that kind of hid a lot of the KPIs that should have been important and you know some of them were easy to suss out.
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Like you know, we pay attention to ad spend and ACOS and tacos and things like that, but things that kind of that fly under the radar and that kind of sit underneath the surface like inventory I mean, especially when you're dealing with a brand that you know is doing multiple millions of dollars a year, like there's a lot of shipments that come over from China, and if you miss even a week or a week and a half of shipments, which is actually what happened in our case, it sets off this domino effect of things that then, especially when you add in tariffs to the situation and all these other external factors.
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So I think, bottom line, first of all, I think you need to understand your business more than just handing it off to an agency in the beginning.
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But also there's a lot of KPIs that you have to be paying attention to as that relationship progresses, just so that you are more in the know than just a weekly meeting or a monthly meeting with your agency head.
00:09:53.980 --> 00:10:02.034
Yeah, I think too is you know, when you dial in on the KPI issue, there's the easy ones.
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You know ACOS and TACOS or ROAS, however you want to pay attention to it, but at the end of the day, even those aren't really telling you the full picture of what you really need to be looking at.
00:10:15.323 --> 00:10:48.014
You know, in terms of, maybe, your contribution margin at, say, you know CM2 or CM3, and understanding what those numbers look like and, quite frankly, and understanding what those numbers look like and quite frankly, especially if it's an agency that's managing more than just ads or more than just this here, like if they're more of a full service agency, well then they have a little bit more of a responsibility to be hitting those, we'll say, more eagle eye view type KPIs rather than the more detailed ones such as ACOS or something.
00:10:48.014 --> 00:10:52.349
I also think one of the things that we kind of messed up in this.
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We'll focus specifically on PPC, since a lot of Amazon brands will farm out PPC to an agency and that is and that is.
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You can hide a lot, especially if your PPC agency is not properly separating out branded terms from unbranded terms.
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So when they're creating campaigns within your PPC account, you should be looking at the structure of those accounts.
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You should be taking a peek every week or two or something and just kind of getting inside of the campaigns and seeing what keywords are they putting in there?
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What is the strategy?
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Make sure that you're talking to the company and don't just say, hey, manage my PPC, but find out from them what is the strategy behind how they set up campaigns and how they set up ad groups and how they decide on bidding and things like that.
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Because, first of all, if they can't really talk strategy with you in a way that you can understand, then they probably don't understand what they're doing as well as they ought to.
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But what we noticed and this was way after the fact, unfortunately was we got inside of our campaigns and found branded and unbranded terms were all lumped together in the same campaigns everywhere.
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Well, what happens with that?
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If you start looking at a campaign, even at a campaign level, if you don't go underneath that, if you're just looking at each campaign and you're looking at the numbers, you could look at a lot of these campaigns and see, you know, hey, my ROAS looks pretty good, or whatever.
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And then if you look, you know, on a, you know, hey, my ROAS looks pretty good or whatever.
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And then if you look, you know on a, you know the overall account, you know you can also see ROAS numbers that might look relatively decent.
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But the problem is, if you dig deeper you'll find that you're wasting a lot of money on a lot of terms, that it's being hidden because the ROAS for a branded keyword is so much higher and so it was throwing off all of our numbers.
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We couldn't separate out what was branded search and how is it performing, you know, versus non-branded and new to brand and that sort of thing, and so it was really kind of just an absolute mess on the PPC side.
00:12:53.179 --> 00:13:07.907
So, thinking through what are the things that we should actually pay attention to and probably figuring that stuff out before you hire the agency, maybe using chat, gpt and saying look, we're looking at hiring an agency to manage X, y, z.
00:13:08.408 --> 00:13:17.732
We would like to know what are the things that we should be monitoring along the way to make sure that agency is doing what we actually want them to do and moving toward the goals that we're wanting to achieve.
00:13:17.732 --> 00:13:23.048
And I would also argue you're doing the agency a disservice if you don't do that Now.
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As John said.
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I think they should do that.
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The agency should come to you and kind of have an idea of what are some of those KPIs and goals that we can talk through with the brand and make sure that we have these kind of set so that we know what we're aiming at.
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But if the agency doesn't have anything to aim at, then on the one hand they could be really bad and you won't know it.
00:13:44.813 --> 00:13:47.207
Then you know, on the one hand they could be really bad and you won't know it.
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On the other hand they could also be really good and you won't know it because you don't have a KPI to compare against.
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So it's a losing scenario, I think, for both the brand and the agency when you haven't outlined those goals and target KPIs and whatnot.
00:13:58.788 --> 00:14:03.544
Yeah, and I think you know what you brought up there is so important, especially around ACOS and ROAS.
00:14:03.544 --> 00:14:12.826
So I think this is one of those things that I don't, that I feel like can't be said enough and isn't communicated as often as it should be.
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And that's one of the reasons why, at least for Amazon, and why Amazon is such a different platform, why I'm not a big fan of ACOS or ROAS, and that's because I feel like I could take any account and if you give me an ACOS goal, I can hit your ACOS goal.
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The only issue is you know what is going to be, you know your actual, you know revenue ad from that that you're going to get from.
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You know from ad sales.
00:14:42.374 --> 00:15:10.868
So if you said, hey, john, I want a 10% ACOS, well, like you talked about, I mean you provide a perfect example of that where you can say, okay, well, if I target all branded terms technically and you've got a good brand technically, I've hit a 10% ACOS, but it may not get you where you want to go as far as the brand is concerned, because and that's where you have to do some testing Are those sales that I would have gotten anyway?
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What percentage?
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And there's different ways that you can kind of suss that data out, looking at search query reports and that type of stuff.
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Because if I turn off all the ads and I'm getting all the sales for my branded terms, then it doesn't make sense for me to advertise on those.
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So using those types of or having that understanding, and then the other thing is is that you know there's other strategies, you know, with low bids and that type of stuff that you can get, you know kind of incremental sales, but at the end of the day, if it doesn't drive the brand forward, because there's so much relationship between your ad sales and your organic ranking that those things really have to be viewed together, which makes it very different from advertising on Meta or Google, for example.
00:15:51.187 --> 00:16:00.822
And so that's where when we're looking at clients and again as Matt mentioned, every client's a little bit different and what really matters is what their goals are.
00:16:00.822 --> 00:16:06.384
But that's where I think one of the biggest numbers that we look at is total advertised cost of sales.
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So you can see what is that impact, not only on my sales, but what impact is that having on the organic side of things?
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And then really looking at what the margins look like.
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So that's kind of as an account level.
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But then, as you mentioned, mike, you have to be looking at also down to the product level of what's my net profit contribution, because that's where pricing strategies and that type of stuff, which is a lever that I think brand owners don't use enough in order to really do the math on.
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Okay, well, if I raise the price by 20%, my conversion rate only goes down by 10%.
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I've actually net profit contribution made progress.
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Or in the reverse, where I cut my price by 10% but my volume goes up by 20%.
00:16:51.986 --> 00:17:05.619
There's a lot of math that needs to happen there at the product level in order to find where those sweet spots are, and if you're not paying attention, and I would say that you probably need a couple of KPIs Personally, I like revenue and tacos.
00:17:05.619 --> 00:17:11.929
I think those are two very big at the account level metrics that are really hard to fudge.
00:17:11.929 --> 00:17:12.971
Is it possible?
00:17:12.971 --> 00:17:15.123
Yes, but much harder.
00:17:15.123 --> 00:17:20.095
And then at the product level, really looking at what is that net profit contribution?
00:17:20.955 --> 00:17:34.180
I think one of the more important things and to be honest I don't know that I ever had a conversation with the agency that we're talking about about organic rank and how advertising and everything else that we were doing affect that.
00:17:34.180 --> 00:17:35.965
You know we went out of stock on a skew.
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How does that affect or affect organic rank?
00:17:37.902 --> 00:17:42.898
You know, for me I ACOS is such a short sighted metric I don't really pay attention.
00:17:42.898 --> 00:17:56.726
I don't even remember the last time I looked at ACOS in the accounts that I managed, because tacos, like you said, john, is a much more indicative metric of how advertising is affecting the overall business, which, in my opinion, that's the goal.
00:17:56.726 --> 00:18:00.904
The goal of advertising is to increase my organic rank for the keywords that matter.
00:18:00.904 --> 00:18:01.286
Like that.
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That's how I look at advertising and if you're only looking at a cost, then it's you're.
00:18:06.425 --> 00:18:15.365
You're missing out on so much opportunity to increase volume on keywords that you're going to end up getting to the top of page one and getting free sales on it.
00:18:15.365 --> 00:18:17.343
It was never a conversation that I had.
00:18:17.343 --> 00:18:21.066
Like I never saw any sort of report on these are the keywords that we're targeting.
00:18:21.066 --> 00:18:23.743
These are the ones that we're a little bit more aggressive on.
00:18:23.743 --> 00:18:29.605
So it has a cost is a little bit higher on that, but this is how our organic rank on this keyword has increased over time.
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And this is the search buying for that keyword.
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I think that that was really missing from the conversations with the agency.
00:18:38.540 --> 00:18:43.151
That really kind of made things a little bit weird for me, in that what is our goal?
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Is our goal just to raise ad spend?
00:18:45.578 --> 00:18:49.587
It is the top of our season, but what is the result of that?
00:18:49.587 --> 00:18:51.818
And also, I think, answering the question and looking at the data of our season, but like, what is the?
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What is the result of that?
00:18:52.327 --> 00:19:08.577
And also, I think, answering the question and looking at the data of like price changes John, you mentioned price being a big lever and it's something that we're testing right now and understanding what it does and looking at the data and understanding not just like I raised my spend or, you know, my ACOS went down, but like what was the overall goal and how did that affect my organic rank.
00:19:08.577 --> 00:19:13.285
That was really something that I felt like was missing from the conversations that I had with the agency.
00:19:14.748 --> 00:19:56.727
Yeah, I think again, it was kind of briefly mentioned earlier too, but we're mentioning all of these things that we saw with this agency and I think the biggest takeaway for me, beyond the make sure you're actually monitoring the KPIs that you care about is you really have to be careful how much grace you give to an agency in terms of how long you're going to wait to really say, look, either this issue has to be addressed kind of immediately and hopefully you've dealt with that.
00:19:56.727 --> 00:20:00.579
You know, up until then, you know you haven't just waited until it becomes a massive issue.
00:20:00.579 --> 00:20:06.096
But you know, either this gets addressed or we're going to have to move a different direction.
00:20:06.096 --> 00:20:15.527
And some of those issues we saw kind of earlier on, because we knew the guys that owned the agency and felt pretty comfortable in what they were trying to create.
00:20:15.527 --> 00:20:22.265
We just believed they were going to right the ship right, and I think that was problematic.
00:20:22.265 --> 00:20:28.994
We gave way too much leeway on that and didn't really say, look, this has to be fixed and it has to be fixed immediately.
00:20:29.135 --> 00:20:39.435
Because if, in order for us to know that you're moving us in the right direction, we need to know these things, we need to understand what is the actual strategy behind what you're doing and the changes that you're making and those sort of things.
00:20:40.038 --> 00:21:09.080
And we didn't do that, and so that's on us, and I think that every brand owner needs to pay attention to that and make sure that they're addressing it and not just kicking the can down the road, so to speak, because it's easy to do that right, like you don't want to have to try to find another agency and you've already kind of offloaded a lot of things to that agency, and so the people on your team are now doing different roles or taking care of different things, and as soon as you drop that agency, if you don't have a replacement for them, well then all of these people.
00:21:09.080 --> 00:21:11.085
Now you have to change your whole structure again.
00:21:11.085 --> 00:21:20.037
So it's a it's a really kind of difficult decision to make, and so I think it's probably easy to just kind of kick that can and hope that that it's going to turn around.
00:21:20.037 --> 00:21:21.661
You can't afford to do that.
00:21:21.661 --> 00:21:23.666
We did that and we're going to pay for it.
00:21:25.395 --> 00:21:38.143
Yeah, I think that's the other thing that I would say to brand owners you know that are like, hey, I'm gonna, you know, find you know a PPC person from you know Pakistan or whatever.
00:21:38.163 --> 00:21:45.967
And that's not to say that you know there are diamonds in the rough of people from you know Pakistan and India who are fantastic, but for every you know good one, there's probably a thousand bad ones.
00:21:45.967 --> 00:21:59.426
And really looking at what that opportunity cost is Because it's not necessarily, yeah, you might pay an agency that's based here in the US or somebody at the end of the day that knows what they're doing, a heck of a lot more.
00:21:59.426 --> 00:22:18.169
But assuming that they're doing their job, your downside risk is a lot less than if you're paying somebody $2 an hour, $4 an hour in Pakistan or India to you know manage your you know 10 or $20,000 in ad spend.
00:22:18.169 --> 00:22:32.328
You know you can very easily make up that, that opportunity cost difference If you know they're barely competent at it at $4 an hour versus somebody who knows what they're doing.
00:22:32.328 --> 00:22:35.505
You know, at $50 an hour You're muted again, matt.
00:22:37.496 --> 00:22:39.384
My cat is, I have to mute her for my cat.
00:22:39.384 --> 00:22:58.741
But the challenge with that and again, this is nothing against anybody from particular countries, but the challenge with that is that I think that the genesis of one of these things is that there's a big, giant Facebook group with a whole bunch of people from a specific country that want to be VAs and they've gone through this training.
00:22:58.741 --> 00:23:00.494
There's hundreds of thousands of people in this group.
00:23:00.494 --> 00:23:14.337
They've gone through this training and they've learned not so great ways to market themselves as virtual assistants, as Amazon analysts let's call them assistants, as Amazon analysts, let's call them.
00:23:14.357 --> 00:23:37.507
And the challenge is that when you work with some of these agencies there are some agencies out there that employ a whole bunch of these VAs, let's call them that aren't necessarily trained on how to manage an account that's spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a month, but that might not necessarily be all of that apparent to you, because your communication with the agency is with the owner or the sales guy or, you know, maybe an account manager.
00:23:37.955 --> 00:23:45.144
So I think that's another thing, and and I don't I don't want to say that the I feel like the wool was pulled over our eyes, because I don't feel like that.
00:23:45.144 --> 00:23:56.388
I do know, though, that our account manager with this particular agency, or the person that was pulling the levers inside of the campaigns, at least for a time, was an overseas person.
00:23:56.388 --> 00:24:14.461
That was the one that was putting together these reports for us, and I think I mentioned that the reports weren't all that great that we were getting from them, and it was very obvious that this person was a very low level type of a PPC analyst that was only paying attention to a few metrics and didn't really understand what was going on behind the scenes.
00:24:14.461 --> 00:24:17.538
So that's one thing that I will throw out there as a caution.
00:24:17.538 --> 00:24:31.907
I think it's important to really, when you're working with an agency, really understanding the expertise level of the person that's actually pushing the buttons and pulling the levers in the account, because I feel like that was kind of happening in our account, at least for a little bit.
00:24:32.974 --> 00:25:29.343
Well, and like you said earlier, matt, you know that if you don't already understand, at least at a bird's eye level how well, let's just take PPC, since we're on that topic If you don't actually understand the, let's say, current most accepted strategies and I'm not going to say strategy because you know there are agencies who do things different from one another and there's some things that those strategies are, why they employ them and at least the basic foundational aspects of how they employ them then you will not be able to intelligently have those conversations with an agency that you hire and it will be really easy for them to pull the wool over your eyes or not.
00:25:29.923 --> 00:25:36.353
You know, maybe they're just not that great and they think they're better than they are, and you don't know any different.
00:25:36.353 --> 00:25:52.938
And so between the two of you, it's blind leading the blind, right, or they are relatively good at what they do, but they realize they can just kind of phone it in because you have no idea and they can just meet the ACOS goal that you gave them or whatever, and you're going to be happy because you don't know what's going on.
00:25:52.938 --> 00:26:10.701
So you really do need to take some time before you're going to hire an agency to do anything in your business to make sure you at least understand that stuff at kind of a foundational level, so you can have that intelligent conversation, so you can know what kind of KPIs you should be monitoring to make sure they know what they're doing.
00:26:10.701 --> 00:26:17.545
So you know what the campaign structure should look like, so you can take a peek once in a while and make sure that is actually what they're doing.
00:26:17.545 --> 00:26:18.757
You know that sort of thing.
00:26:20.060 --> 00:26:39.500
Yeah, and I would really encourage brands you know to talk to at least three to five agencies and really get particular about and I think you guys have already brought it up and I just wanna double click on it which is really getting into the nitty gritty of how they would apply their strategies or their principles.
00:26:39.500 --> 00:26:48.605
And we're talking a lot about ads, but the same thing could be said for listing, optimization, for fixing catalog issues, for inventory.
00:26:48.605 --> 00:26:55.162
Hey, from step one to step 10, what is your process?
00:26:55.162 --> 00:27:00.557
And having them walk through their you know what's their regular process and how would they apply to your brand.
00:27:00.557 --> 00:27:09.767
And really, the more detailed that that process is and you know, again, give it the common sense test If those you know steps make sense to you.
00:27:09.767 --> 00:27:14.275
You know if they're giving the more detailed that process is typically, and give it the common sense test if those steps make sense to you.
00:27:14.275 --> 00:27:22.750
If they're giving it in more detail that process is typically, the better thought out it is, the more experienced they're going to be with working with brands like you.
00:27:22.934 --> 00:27:32.478
Now, the other thing that I would add is that that's where talking to three to five agencies is helpful, and maybe even more depending on your level of experience.
00:27:32.498 --> 00:28:01.567
If you don't know hardly anything about you know PPC, I'd probably, you know, I would recommend brands talk to five to seven agencies, because what you'll start to see is that once you've done you know, you've talked to a few of them you're going to see a lot of different things that rhyme and you're going to get a much better feel for who knows what they're talking about and who's just kind of you know, doing some hand waving and saying, hey, we optimize your PPC and we, you know, negate keywords to get rid of ads.
00:28:01.828 --> 00:28:08.894
You know wasted ad spend, you know, and kind of these magic words of you know we're never going to have wasted ad spend.
00:28:08.894 --> 00:28:12.182
Well, ok, so you're going to tell me that every one of your clicks is going to convert.
00:28:12.182 --> 00:28:13.443
I'd love to see that.
00:28:13.443 --> 00:28:30.903
So you know I think that's really what it boils down to is is that, depending on your level of experience, is going to depend on the number of you know agencies that you probably need to interview before you find that one that's going to do a good job for you and going to be a good fit for your brand.
00:28:32.065 --> 00:28:48.455
Yeah, I think what you'll also find out in that interview process, which I think is important, is how well and I think it's important to ask this question I've been in sales and the agency world for many years and I used to hate this question because it ended up requiring me to do a whole lot more.
00:28:48.476 --> 00:29:02.554
And it's when brands want to ask you to meet the person that is actually going to be managing the account.
00:29:02.815 --> 00:29:38.635
And I think that I've actually been with agencies in the past, as in the sales, that it almost and it felt a little bit dirty to me because it was almost like a bait and switch where it was a very specific agency who, depending on the level of ad spend, you would either go with the A ad team or the B ad team and the person didn't know which ad team they were going to, and it was always they were always talking to the A team in the meetings and I didn't love that, especially the brands that you know were either new or weren't at the revenue levels that some of the bigger brands that we worked with it just it, it.
00:29:38.695 --> 00:29:40.398
It felt it felt not so great to me.
00:29:40.398 --> 00:29:46.548
So I think I think understanding who the person is that you're going to be contacting with and meeting that person in the beginning.
00:29:46.548 --> 00:29:54.771
I think having some sort of level of rapport with the person that you're going to be working with on a regular basis is important, and I don't I don't hate that question anymore.
00:29:54.771 --> 00:29:59.859
I don't hate asking the question of can I meet the person of who I'm going to actually be working with?
00:29:59.859 --> 00:30:04.487
I think that's important and you know, being being on the other side of those relationships now.
00:30:04.487 --> 00:30:08.224
Now I really understand why brand owners wanted to do that and I think it's an important step.
00:30:09.487 --> 00:30:38.286
Well, I think the other thing I want to make sure that we also double click on is what you brought up, mike, as far as like, how much grace do you give to an agency, and I think one of those this is one of those things where having a regular cadence for meetings and that type of stuff is important, and also making sure that you're focusing on that KPI and really tracking that and, you know, talking with that agency and saying, okay, this is where we want this KPI to be, what is realistic that we could have by next week or two weeks from now.
00:30:38.286 --> 00:30:39.569
You know what does that look like.
00:30:39.569 --> 00:30:42.882
So that way you're setting some clear milestones.
00:30:42.882 --> 00:30:52.207
Because, again, as you know, an agency owner, I've been on the other end of it where somebody's like, hey, I want to triple my sales this month, and it's like, okay, well, do you want to triple your ad budget?
00:30:52.207 --> 00:30:52.828
You know.
00:30:53.209 --> 00:31:02.057
So, having those types of discussions of like, hey, what's realistic that we can accomplish in a week, two weeks, a month, and then you know, based on what your goal is.
00:31:02.057 --> 00:31:06.115
So that way you're getting agreements between the brand and the agency.
00:31:06.115 --> 00:31:29.951
That's where I see it most successful of like, hey, this is what the milestone next week should look like and what a milestone two weeks should look like, and really checking in on those milestones, cause I think you know what you know we've experienced with that is, if it's super clear, we're going to do everything we in our power in order to meet or exceed that milestone, and it makes it a lot easier for prioritizing.
00:31:29.951 --> 00:31:30.854
Hey, what does this?
00:31:30.854 --> 00:31:32.346
What does this brand care about?
00:31:32.705 --> 00:31:33.887
Yeah, I it also.
00:31:33.887 --> 00:31:40.808
It also makes me think, john, that so, okay, yes, you have, you know you're bringing an agency on.
00:31:40.808 --> 00:31:48.390
Hopefully you've taken the time ahead of that to at least lay down what you think are reasonable goals.
00:31:48.390 --> 00:31:53.328
Say, you know, for you know six months, you know three months, maybe 12 months, you know whatever.
00:31:53.328 --> 00:32:28.259
But also, you know you mentioned this early in the conversation and that was you know, and you mentioned it more from the agency side, but I also think it's just as valuable from the brand side, and that is what are some things that need to be done that would be under the responsibility of this agency, that would have a significant impact and that you can generally say should be able to be accomplished in a week or two or maybe four.
00:32:28.259 --> 00:32:34.938
Right, some of those things that you can say that you get a chance to evaluate more early on.
00:32:34.938 --> 00:32:44.549
So you set a goal and say, look, in two weeks time these things should be finished, right, it doesn't really have anything specifically to do with, say, performance indicators.
00:32:44.589 --> 00:32:51.371
You know, like you know, cm3 or ACOS or tacos and things like that, but more so like, did these things get done?
00:32:51.371 --> 00:33:14.574
And then being able to evaluate how did it get done, like, for instance, a listing refresh Maybe it's just, it's not images, it's just the text content and maybe keyword optimization and things like that, and saying, hey look, in two weeks we'd like to have these power mini listings all refreshed with new content, updated keyword focus and optimization.
00:33:14.574 --> 00:33:16.877
And then, when that's done, I'd like to have a report of what was done, why focus and optimization.
00:33:16.877 --> 00:33:19.050
And then, when that's done, I'd like to have a report of what was done, why it was done.
00:33:19.050 --> 00:33:23.153
And then I get to evaluate it and kind of look, does it read well, does it, you know?
00:33:23.153 --> 00:33:24.761
Does it look like it's gibberish?
00:33:24.761 --> 00:33:36.374
And that it was written by somebody overseas whose English is the second language, you know, and it gives you something to kind of hang your hat on and say, okay, well, step one, you know they did that, they did it well, it seems correct.
00:33:36.374 --> 00:33:37.875
Let's move forward.
00:33:37.875 --> 00:33:58.155
I do have a question for you, though, john, because one of the things that for a long time, I've really kind of looked at as being I don't know in my opinion, kind of a standard way to operate, and I think that piece that I just mentioned is one that I haven't done very well and I think it's something that we should do, kind of moving forward, but in a larger scale.
00:33:59.157 --> 00:34:21.516
When you bring on an agency, how long do you believe that it makes sense to say, okay, you know, unless something goes egregiously wrong, we're giving you two months or three months, and it probably depends a little bit on what type of agency is it and what do you want them to do and how quickly should they be able to ramp something up?
00:34:21.516 --> 00:34:35.552
But, like for me, when I say, okay, I'm going to have somebody new handle PPC, right, well, you've got to take it from whatever the campaign structure was before and you've got to transition that potentially to whatever you want the campaign structure to be.
00:34:35.552 --> 00:34:43.012
And there's this period over which you can't just turn off everything that was already there, but you also can't just turn on everything that you want.
00:34:43.012 --> 00:34:46.003
So what's the length of that process?
00:34:46.003 --> 00:34:58.077
And you have to give them time to be able to make that transition, to start moving the numbers in the right direction, to start getting that campaign set up, optimized, to get enough history behind the campaigns that they start producing better.
00:34:58.557 --> 00:35:12.405
So I think that's key that in most cases, my guess would be if you're hiring on an agency and you're going to make an evaluation in a month whether to keep them, it better be only like okay, as long as nothing egregious happens, we'll keep going.
00:35:12.405 --> 00:35:17.809
But if something really goes off the rails, you know a month later I'm going to terminate this and move on.
00:35:17.809 --> 00:35:19.489
What are your thoughts on that?
00:35:19.510 --> 00:35:29.034
Because I feel like that's an important piece of this, you know, for you know brands that are seven figures, plus there's probably, you know, there's usually years worth of campaign history.
00:35:29.034 --> 00:35:50.795
I'll give you one you know, my personal red flag is any agency that says, hey, we're just going to turn off all the ads that you currently have running, we're going to create all new accounts, run the other direction.
00:35:50.795 --> 00:35:52.286
So I will say that.
00:35:52.286 --> 00:35:58.297
That said, you know most agencies that are good at what they do at this point that's not going to be their approach.
00:35:58.297 --> 00:36:09.248
They're going to do exactly what you're talking about, which is, hey, we're going to have to ramp up some new campaigns, then we're going to have to modify the campaigns that are currently in existence because we want to take advantage of that history that's already there and what's already working.
00:36:09.248 --> 00:36:16.679
And so I think that's where it kind of circles back to what you were talking about earlier, which is starting by measuring inputs instead of outputs.
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:43.360
So I know, ultimately, there are certain results that we all want to get out of whether it's ads or a specific portion of the business, and then ultimately out of the business as a whole and really what it starts when you're starting that relationship, I think, measuring those inputs and having that discussion of the agency of like hey, what are the inputs that we should see in this first week as we onboard?
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:46.574
What are the inputs we should see in the first two to three weeks?
00:36:46.574 --> 00:36:52.152
And then, what are those inputs that we should see in the first month or two inputs?
00:36:52.152 --> 00:37:07.394
What I would say is is that generally, you know, I would give you know them two to three months before you really start seeing the, you start measuring the results, end of it, and really in those first couple of months, really focus on measuring those inputs.
00:37:07.476 --> 00:37:18.956
Now, as you said, mike, if there's something that goes completely off the rails, you know, then that's kind of a different conversation of you know where they make a massive mistake, that's, you know, costing you a huge amount of money.
00:37:18.956 --> 00:37:23.471
Like you know, it's hard to give grace for something like that.
00:37:23.471 --> 00:37:26.905
That said, I think those situations are few and far between.
00:37:26.905 --> 00:37:45.596
I think most brands are kind of in that position that you were talking about of like hey, you know, I I want to hand this off to this agency, but I don't know how to measure them in those first couple of months, to know is it because it's the transition or is it because they're just not that good.
00:37:45.596 --> 00:38:04.692
And so that's where I think, in those first couple of months, you know, and I would say two to three months, especially with you know, seven figure plus brand, we're really measuring those inputs and again there should be a very clear discussion about hey, here's the inputs that we're going to be working on and what that timeline looks like, so that way you can hold them accountable to those inputs.
00:38:05.193 --> 00:38:07.527
I actually really liked the input versus output.
00:38:07.527 --> 00:38:16.751
You know just just that moniker, you know just like labeling it Okay, we're measuring inputs for the first couple of months, then we're shifting to measuring outputs.
00:38:16.751 --> 00:38:23.012
Maybe over that third month we're transitioning to measuring outputs by the time you're reaching, you know, that month three mark.
00:38:23.012 --> 00:38:26.186
You know you should, for the most part, be measuring outputs.
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